Low trail

accro · February 26, 2018, 6:04am

Huhtikuussa tähän ketjuun tulee sisältöä.

happo-orgiat · March 16, 2018, 9:43am

Crusti-matti laittoi romanceurin keuloja irtomyyntiin uudella kruunulla

https://crustbikes.com/products/1-threaded-fork/

Ostakaas joku noi pois niin ei tartte ite haaveilla 1" quill -elämästä

mankkis · March 16, 2018, 9:47am

Samperin siisti forkki kyllä. Toiseksi hienoin kruunu jonka olen tänä vuonna nähnyt.

Emmä tiiä mihin laittaisin. Stavaan vois hah vaikka laittaa, löytyis sopivasti headtube reducerit 1-1/8"->1" ja ylimääräinen kierteellinen 1" XT ohjainlaakeri.

Vähän nafti toi 386mm a-c parituumaselle 622 kumille elikkäs joutuis krimppaa takaa tilaa parituumaselle 584lle. Kulmat tietty hmm. Ja bb height. Ehkä lopetan tän ajatusleikin tähän.

tmar · March 16, 2018, 2:51pm

mankkis - 13:47, 16.3.2018 » Samperin siisti forkki kyllä. Toiseksi hienoin kruunu jonka olen tänä vuonna nähnyt. Emmä tiiä mihin laittaisin. Stavaan vois hah vaikka laittaa, löytyis sopivasti headtube reducerit 1-1/8"->1" ja ylimääräinen kierteellinen 1" XT ohjainlaakeri. Vähän nafti toi 386mm a-c parituumaselle 622 kumille elikkäs joutuis krimppaa takaa tilaa parituumaselle 584lle. Kulmat tietty hmm. Ja bb height. Ehkä lopetan tän ajatusleikin tähän.

Ootko harkinnut velo orange polyvalent polkupyörän hankkimista?

https://i1.wp.com/cycling-passion.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Velo-Orange-Polyvalent.jpg?fit=660%2C419

NKOTB · March 16, 2018, 6:17pm

Paljos negsu mahtaa pulittaa tulevasta custom-kekestään? Veikkaan, et vähempi kuin toi Matin haarukka rahtien ja tullien jälkeen.

ununu · March 16, 2018, 6:23pm

eiks pelagost saa noita kohta 150 eurolla tops mut viel paremmil standardeil

happo-orgiat · March 16, 2018, 6:24pm

ununu - 22:23, 16.3.2018 » eiks pelagost saa noita kohta 150 eurolla tops mut viel paremmil standardeil

Jos riittää 50 mm kruunun sisämitta niin joo. Ite tarttisin ahmaan vähintään sen 60

ununu · March 16, 2018, 6:28pm

hei nyt sä rauhotut

bike_futurist · March 16, 2018, 6:44pm

250 posteineen mis oli 30 returning customer ja kiva kun laitat kuvia setupistas -alea

853 reiskaa

nutip · March 16, 2018, 6:57pm

halpaa hommaa kyllä noitten kustom hommien teettäminen siellä

ite tehtynä: vähän niillä mitä sattu käteen tyyppisesti, kaikki kiinnikkeet + kromo jalat about 100€ ja työtunteja: ihan tarpeeks

eikä oo vielä ees pintakäsitelty…

jos sais kohta vihdoin itekki vähä enempirakeisen kekkken alle vaikkei kyllä taida ihan ns. lowtrail tulla silti

mankkis · March 17, 2018, 7:45am

tmar - 18:51, 16.3.2018 »
mankkis - 13:47, 16.3.2018 » Samperin siisti forkki kyllä. Toiseksi hienoin kruunu jonka olen tänä vuonna nähnyt. Emmä tiiä mihin laittaisin. Stavaan vois hah vaikka laittaa, löytyis sopivasti headtube reducerit 1-1/8"->1" ja ylimääräinen kierteellinen 1" XT ohjainlaakeri. Vähän nafti toi 386mm a-c parituumaselle 622 kumille elikkäs joutuis krimppaa takaa tilaa parituumaselle 584lle. Kulmat tietty hmm. Ja bb height. Ehkä lopetan tän ajatusleikin tähän.
Ootko harkinnut velo orange polyvalent polkupyörän hankkimista? https://i1.wp.com/cycling-passion.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Velo-Orange-Polyvalent.jpg?fit=660%2C419

En sekuntiakaan. Ei kiinnosta milliäkään.

bike_futurist · March 29, 2018, 2:30pm

negaatio - 22:44, 16.3.2018 » 250 posteineen mis oli 30 returning customer ja kiva kun laitat kuvia setupistas -alea 853 reiskaa

bike_futurist · March 29, 2018, 7:09pm

Marraskuussa sen taisin tilailla mut näis custom projekteissa on turha hosua. Mul on velo orangen randotarde eteen ja aattelin hakea töölöstä (en ununulta) metalliloksut alle. Sit vaan joku kori eteen ja polkimet mil ajaa normikengil ni ei joka päivä valitse hobokrossia

NKOTB · March 30, 2018, 7:03am

Se Orangen tarde tais olla jollain ihan omalla mitoituksellaan kiinnikkeiden paikkojen suhteen. Jos se joskus sattuis laukeemaan niin pääsee sit teettämään customia siihenkin tilalle.

kermavirta · March 30, 2018, 8:24am

happo-orgiat - 15:16, 9.11.2017 » Pohjiksi heinosen janin kool aidit jos ei ole tuttu konsepti https://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/a-journey-of-discovery-part-4-front-end-geometry/

Lueskelin koko sarjan läpi. Jäi nyt mietityttämään että: Millasia kulmia tähän touhuun nyt tarvitaan ja paljon on tämä maaginen [i]low[/i] puhuttaessa low trailista?

Tossa olis ratapyöräprojekti noin 75 keulakulmalla odottelemassa kohtaloaan joka tällä hetkellä on 25 rake, 25x622 kumit, 65mm trail.
Mutta olisiko taivas maan päällä jos hankkisin 45 rakeisen keulan ja 40x584 kumit? Trailiksi tulisi 43.

YV on kasvattanut mut tähän asti uskomaan että mitä jyrkempi keula ja pienempi rake sitä paremmin on asiat, nyt en enää tiedä mistään mitään.

happo-orgiat · March 30, 2018, 8:26am

Tässä tosiaan numeroita heinosen lehdestä http://normaali.net/temp/Front-End-Geometry.pdf

happo-orgiat · March 30, 2018, 4:54pm

Matti kyllä best kekediileri https://crustbikes.com/products/lightning-bolt-fork/

Odie · March 31, 2018, 4:42am

happo-orgiat - 21:54, 30.3.2018 » Matti kyllä best kekediileri https://crustbikes.com/products/lightning-bolt-fork/

Liian vähän kiinnikkeitä mutta tolla sais kyl kovan 650b loltrail rollerin.

happo-orgiat · March 31, 2018, 2:15pm

Kiinnostavaa pohdintaa 650B-ryhmän puolella

To me the key difference with low trail is that it is less reactive to weight shifts. Low trail has less flop factor (i.e. less drop in the front end as the wheel is turned to the side) and that’s what reduces its reactivity to body-weight shifts.

This reduced reactivity to weight shifts explains all the things people report they like about low trail: 1) less reactive to front loads, 2) less tendency to wander due to stray body-weight shifts at very low speeds, 3) less arm effort or bar-width needed / desired for steering (because your arms aren’t overcoming as much flop/front end drop), 4) ability to change line mid-curve (because you can steer more with arms where a body-weight shift mid-sweeper is not as easy).

This reduced reactivity to weight shifts may also explain the things people report they dislike about low trail: people who are used to accurately and telepathically steering by subtle body weight shifts like you do with classic mid-trail (~56mm) bikes will likely miss this effective way of steering on a low trial bike as they will find themselves steering more by arm movement to which they are not habituated. They may be likely to oversteer and then overcorrect as the bike doesn’t steer in the “natural” way they’re used to. This could explain why experienced expert riders might feel low trail bikes veer around more, while others say they veer around less. That doesn’t mean those riders wouldn’t eventually get used to and possibly like low trail, but why should they. If they have an effective and happy steering feel that works well on other bikes it’s reasonable to stick with that.

Habituation to one steering feel or another is easily under-emphasized in these low trail pro-con discussions. Some people habituated to higher flop mid-trail and/or high-trail bikes really like the lighter feel of low trial steering, and others may miss the accurate effective subtle weight-shift steering they’re habituated to. Habituation varies a lot from person to person. Not only what have you been riding for years and habituated to, and not only which do you prefer, but also how much do you prefer it, and how much you want to change your style of steering vs how much do you want to keep using steering habits that have been effective for you.

My own habituation experience is that I got my first low trail bike as a teenager in the mid-70s. I had no idea it was low trail, or what trail was. All I knew is that it steered way different from the sport bikes (mid-and high trail) I’d been riding. Steering felt twitchy or too light and reactive too me, and I couldn’t ride it no-hands at first. (No-handed riding being a body-weight shift thing.) I didn’t like it at first, but it was a ~high-end 531DB race bike and I was a kid and my goal was to learn to like it. I did learn to like it a lot and I still have it and ride it today. I also continued to like mid-trail steering a lot, and when I would go back and forth between my low trail race bike and mid-trail race bike I had to adjust to the different feel–usually only for out-of-saddle riding, and only the first 2 or 3 standing pedal revs is all it takes.

To add another trail characteristic–high trail bikes (~62mm and up) tend to develop more and more self-steering stability at speed. That can feel reassuringly stable on a rough loose descent or it can feel like the bike’s on rails and won’t initiate a turn when descending pavement at speed (higher speed is where high trail has most stability and tarmac adds resistance to turning). The key to initiating turns on pavement on high trail bikes is counter steering, and all motorcyclists know this, or learn fast, because all/most motorcycles are built with high trail (by our standards) even bullet bikes. At one time I didn’t like riding high trail bikes on pavement because of this. Even though I knew about counter steering I seldom used it (it’s seldom useful on low and mid- trail bikes) and would forget to do it on a high trail paved descent and the bike’s on-rails feeling would annoy me. After I’d started riding motorcycles a lot of miles, and had made counter-steering an intuitive automatic part of every motorcycling turn, I happened to be on a high trail bicycle and noticed how easy it was to turn. I’d habituated myself to high-trail by means of habituating myself to subtle counter-steering.

These two features of bicycle trail explain for me all of the commonly discussed traits of bike trail. 1) low trail bikes have less reactivity to weight shifts, and 2) high trail bikes develop more and more steering stability at speed (mainly on pavement because loose surfaces mitigate high-trail stability, and may be a reason adventure bikes are built with lots of trail).

This is also why mid-trail really needs to be it’s own category. I realize having just a low-high binary would have a simplicity advantage, and I realize there are various degrees of each within the three categories. But mid-trail is different because it has lots of reactivity to weight shifts (plenty of flop) but it does not have the steering stability that high trail bikes have. This is the reason many here dislike mid-trail bikes–they flop with a big front load, they wander at low speed if you don’t constantly watch it, and even at high speed they can turn on a dime so you can’t zone out and cruise like you can on a stable high trail bike (in the 80s they made triathlon bikes with high trail for this reason). But it’s also the reason mid-trail has been the main/most common race and sport bike geometry for 40+ years. In my own habituated experience, mid-trail is great because it is responsive and always ready to turn, even at high speeds, where it still has enough stability to cruise. That said, I can say the same thing (habituated) about my low trail bikes, which are mostly what I ride now (30mm and 38mm) because I can’t find anything they don’t do well. For me.

–Mitch

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/650b/45HveI4mRhw/itCeMd-MAAAJ

Lumikko · March 31, 2018, 4:18pm

Erittäin hyvin kuvailtu siinä.